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I've had some success with our old favourite Soda Bicarb as a foot soak when inflamation is high and relentless.
They are are both recommended eleswhere as bath additives -together as detoxing [@ one cup level] which I've tried.
If I remember it right -one stops the other allowing reabsorption of anything that may leach out through the skin.
@ So this is still taking some form of meds, Trev…
Yes Jim!- I knew this would be picked up, but as another one I take is bendromethfluazide ( the No1 gout harbinger, I reckon.
I think [hope?] the effects of the other two probably cancel out any UA increase dis-benefit.
I take them on alternate days to spread the load. Gout meds are not the only ones that need creative management.
A huge proportion of BP meds takers do not continue dosage at prescribed level , if at all -due to 'side effects'!
I have taken , also, to the habit of adding raw grated root ginger at the re-use stage of BBB [in soup] for the added benefit I think it brings.
@Trev, how long do you soak your BB?…
I have taken note of warnings so far and used a 4 hr first soak- not as long as overnight, but capable of affecting efficacy of this juice! I must admit to not trying it during a bad attck as I haven't had one 🙂 so mitigating a nagging twinge is less exacting a duty.
In future , if needed I can modify production methods to suit needs.
Other ?? :
These twinges are easily recognised as niggles ,or otherwise, [heavier] warnings that have an extra 'twang' and signature to them. We possibly all know the warning signs after a few agonizing attacks ! I feel lucky that they haven't gone further, as there's no way I know of -to be sure of the final result.
Mitiigation is the watchword at the current state of play on gout management by natural means, not a cure, as such to me.
Restoration of balance is the best driver to all round good health, especially in this long term metabolic curse of gout.
Jim- I'm still getting along with no attacks without gout meds. I'm still taking 2 low level diuretics, one which[lasix] with the co-admin [ with the requisite 5 hr gap ] of Losartan as discussed here. This may have a slight urate lowering effect and is better than full dose thiazides by themselves.
My BP is thus probably higher than optimal, to be honest- but not causing me problems.
I have taken BBB on about 6 occasions when I felt twinges 'getting a bit too interesting' on old attack sites.
I've been adding cherry or extract when available too- along with a continuing try at alkalizing my diet.
No attacks in last 6 months, I'm pleased to say.
My feeling is that the mixture of watching diet and alcohol intake, along with BBB + Cherries whislt minimising contra-indicated meds for gout can work to good advantage- but I doubt UA levels are down enough to reduce SUA to below 6.
This is OK for me now- and I would be prepared to add meds for gout on top- but not instead of lifestyle choices.
One puzzle I have, from Metas comments on BBB earlier, was taking BBB after a meat binge would not be an equal trial- the first P.Vulgaris dosage may have got some of the way before the soya bean dose was applied -to finish the job.
Also, are you saying that the best iron suppression is gained by not throwing any of the first soak water away?
Maybe there are three stages- Iron reduction [more 'long term'], with immune reaction suppression and inflamation limiting at the attack stage?
Maybe this is why, if not taking UA lowering drugs, beer is such a risk around the 6 mark [in an established gouty]?
Zip has expanded how the old crystals can be kept quite well wrapped up- if not disturbed ! (radically by Alcohol or urate lowering meds)
Beer contains known purines in a very easily absorbed medium and also, with the alcohol, loading the liver at the very moment when the urate needs moving out!
To anyone on that knife edge- beer is the last thing to risk.
If your body is just seen as a vehicle to ride, whatever, and you have to drink through critical times- then so be it. Take the meds.
I'm no expert, but if my symptoms are typical gout then a few weeks is the usual -agony then goes and just residual twinges here and there depending somewhat on diet/exercise etc levels.
I would suspect anything really persistent could be a secondary problem.
There's absolutely no reason why other arthritic illness cannot co-exist with gout, afaik.
John, you need to update with your figures on blood test UA and treatment meds- if they're buried on here by now.
It does sound you have typical mobile gout flares when hovering around the critical level of 6mg/dL- many report on taking UA lowering drugs.
Also ,are you taking in anything that is bad for gout and maintaining the sequence?
This adjustment to dosage witth meds is probably why many are wary of long term meds [as for BP for example].
Once the body adapts to incoming meds- levels are either needing to be increased, the effects reduce or further adjuncts are needed.
Some report this effect on here after years on Allopurinol.
This isn't a reason to refuse it, but CJ above has illustrated how it can show up in use.
The unknown variable here is the amount of entrained urate in the joints etc- and how it comes into solution over time, with or without uroscoric drugs.
My caution about more meds isn't just the side effects & loss of effectiveness over time but the hit and miss tendency of what is really going on in the recipient and the real long term cost to health.
I've mentioned it somewhere- it was 7.5 about 6 months ago around my last attack, I think after it.
I'd not been on here to get into details- so I haven't been as assiduous in tracking it previously, over the years.
I saw the pc plot on the Docs screen and it seems to be diving around somewhat over the years as expected, but the previous reading had been 'around normal ' -which I assume to be 6.
On this, I know we can't be sure- their figures are far too liberal as we know!
Next time I visit I'll try to get a print out and post it for interest.
I need to get another test done soon anyway to check progress to date.
John this is a bit tricky. You're with a new health carer and it's important to establish trust and confidence.
Firstly, it does seem a bit precipitate to bang straight in with 500 mg B3 if you have gout.
It seems she 's more worried about your cardio health than the gout risks.
Larger doses have been trialled than this, but there can be substantial other side effects.
Why not discuss your worries with your nurse or Doctor [by phone even]- and maybe suggest a lower start point dosage, as we would for uriscorics here to 'test the water'?
In any case, it's probably a corrective action for what may be a dietary lack over the years and would not stay that high for ever.
The large dose B3 action is similar to statins, so I would be wary of taking Colchicine with it also.
I would also suggest not chasing your tail online- it can be helpful in giving specifics- but you do need a steady eye, so as not to get over worried.
We are pretty strong machines , us humans!
Finally, if you are actually on track with the proposed treatment, it may be that, eventually, you may need to consider co -admin of a UA lowering drug to keep the balance. I take a number of lower level than normal BP meds to counteract each others' side effects- and it would be far from the first time this is done.
Love the name John! Barley -worn
Don’t let this get you down.
I’m convinced that the more the medical profession read of how bad the pain is that gout brings along- the more it will get taken seriously.
Secondly, new drugs are coming in after a long time of neglect.
Thirdly, diet is getting a lot of attention- esp. acidosis states that are connected with gout, arthritis and auto-immune problems so common. People are really living longer now – and their metabolic balance problems will have to be considered more imo.
So my early message is – Don’t beat up on yourself more than necessary [though some self assessment is always good
].I’m a long time gout sufferer and recently taken fish, prawns, beer, wine, tequila & more without an attack (just a bit of a twinge both bunions) -this on NO major uricosurics. But including BP meds Lasix & Losartan which have been shown to assist on this.
I’m watching diet too, keeping joints mobile as possible and warm @ night.
This is not a magic formula and I don’t know the future- but it’s manageable-
Stress is a big negative factor for gout, and you are showing some in your post. My past work & emotional related stress were big.
So ‘keep on trucking’ and getting the SUA figure falling further- and with useful support/comment from many on here, you WILL make forward gains!
Final reminder- bearing in mind that now you have had a proven attack, that hospital quoted figure is irrelevant -and under 6 is the maximum long term target to aim for.
Meta- Don't get me wrong- I'm all for natures' novel solutions!
I'm doing 10 mile walks at the weekend, having some hot curries /raw chillies and beers and trying to keep healthy. 🙂 Probably the oldest regular contributor on here. I finished a good session about 3am!
Because BBB is is along the jungle cures that Bruce Parry might come across- it's good to discuss the 'ins amd outs' of them.
It's peoples' choice, in the end ,what to eat and take for health- so long as it's legal- end of!
If you're taking big amounts without adverse affects, all to the good. Some others might be more sensitive to one thing or another & at different times.
All gouties know we've got to struggle to find best health under the current state of play!
There's some interesting stuff flying about on these related topics right now.
Well Meta-You're the man! Climbing to 5,000 views now _How's the hunt for the BB plantation going?
Just a check post on some new info on black beans.
I've been looking into the Leptin diet- not very complex but hard to do right and my eye was therefore especially tuned to the word Lectin in a health article (breifly),
I did some quick online checks and lo and behold- beans are full of Lectin ( a protein) they are toxic and hard to get rid of but soaking does something to help.
My overall impression is that it's a subject like gout- deeply buried , rather neglected and not over researched, given the potential problem.
Unless you have big immune issues ,I don't think Lectin is a big time worry.
[They are said to reduce immune function & affect metabolism, something well implicated, in fact- part of gout itself.]
Apparently, lectins can stop very basic body processes http://www.medicalnewstoday.co…../78478.php
and are even used in establishing blood types. (ABO)
I am glad I take my BBB in a soup mix- though tbh, anything useful is going to have a lurky back office. It does lend credence to the latent power & mystery of BBB.
Throwing initial [or overnight] soak water,next rinse and leftover beans away is probably safest.
How much protein gets in the final broth water is anyones guess!
Low level use like mine , or occasional heavy duty doses under gout duress seem worthwhile, if effective.
Well explained Zip!
I think a major problem in getting a handle on gout is the different view taken on attacks- and long term cause/management on the other hand.
Someone close to an attack would find a heavy meat meal pretty close to a 'cert bet'- but the inability to handle all purines could have a multitude of components over many years.
Someone on a vegetarian diet would theoretically be given more years of grace- but if that person had other co-factors ,not that many.
Too many variables and not enough research-again!
I vary from many here , including Zip – in that I think careful diet, with lifestyle care coupled with [possibly] helpful natural approaches can be a slower, but still valid, way to gout management.
On this, I definitely feel I'm making progress.
I've seen references to Prophylactic colchicine in the past, without the co- admin of uroscorics.
I would not like to take them this way myself though , due to the latent toxicity of the drug.
Used in a gout attack, or with AlloP initiation, makes a lot more sense.
I've seen other reports clearly stating that vegetable purines have no impact on gout.
I haven't the links- but as we have to eat something- I prefer the least dodgy!
Meta- everything in life had mixes of good and bad and that also depends on where you stand.
To a gouty, the relative value of risk versus benefit is a much sharper distinction than for others. Cyanide type components lurking in bean hulls have a lot less interest to someone driven to suicidal thoughts by pain- and many have been down that road.
Likewise, on Goutpal- some like a meds slant and security [of a sort] whilst others [me inc.] prefer to struggle in the natural cure camp.
I would say both have their place, depending on circumstance, and what may today be the general rule can change very quickly- once the cat's 'out of the bag' on other approaches to gout.
People used to to take mercury for syphilis, for goodness sake!¬
So keep going- and I'm sure you will get as much support here,probably more, than elsewhere!
I think the Iron absorption angle is a definite 'runner'!
It's just a job separating the pros and cons- but gout is so neglected [given the pain it can cause] -that any move forward will soon fly round the internet like brush fire.
[eg: see my recent post on natural cancer cure- hard to believe, but pictures show it!]
I don't want to red herring you GP- but I've got a feeling that it may be connected with the same untoward mechanism that grapefruits have with statins, BP meds, and others inc Colch. our little friend!
I think it's an enzyme based thing.
Like you know- it's easy to get bogged down online and lose many a tasty text.
Luckilly- many do come back with a bit of searching. Hope it helps.
Nokka , your situation is where a lot of Gouties find themselves at some time, I reckon.
Whether you take AP or not, you are in a marvellous position to chart your progress for us with your testing kit.
I can understand very well your approach- and you are obviously well up to appreciating our interest and providing the insight this can give.
This is not big pharma with Govt. on their shoulder, but in the old fashiioned way of self discovery.
Many modern drugs/ cures are based on trial and error many, many years ago -and were then followed up and owned by others.
My experience on 'lifetime' BP meds is that you can get off them if done with care, and aware of all the pitfalls, – including disinterest from professionals!
I don't see why this can't apply for some other meds (not all certainly).
I wonder if this attitude doesn't lend weight to the idea that losing interest in what you 'take in' tends to have unforseen side effects.
[Never mind what's on the label :)]
Good success with it- which ever way you take.
I've no wish to be a damp squib on the subject but occasional posters here have mentioned being on AP and still having had problems with attacks. I can't remember each event and they are rare- but from my experience with BP meds I never have 100% trust in chemical solutions as they contributed to my – Yes….Gout!!
Diet is portrayed as a complex a path, and maybe it is- but other benefits may accrue.
Conversely, meds are seen as too easy a path, though AP is hardly top of this list.
I think my broad stance on the Gout, or any other meds front is- if you really need them' be lucky'- if you can manage without them -better, but never easier.
That's why Drs get rich and 30%+ of deaths are attributable to the actual medical intervention.
I think the figure may be higher but I'm feeling generous. 😉
That said- I'm somewhat jealous of those on uroscorics -and happy with them.
It's not a bad place to be -and, with adequate monitoring the risk benefit ratio is probably better than many drugs.
I've never taken AP- but have some 100mg tabs ready if needed.
So, obviously prepared to use, if really necessary.
I suffer quite ready reactions to most meds btw.
I think GP is right on the money with the Iron link.
It's a known risk factor to be high in older males , like gout is.
Red meat , in particular , has a lot of iron.
If you stick to fish [skinned- purines are in the skin] and cut from red meat to white [ & less often]
– it could be enough!
IMO Don't take supplements with iron in- they nearly all have it- and it's an uneccessary addition for mature males [unless anaemic].
Even then, the uptake is low from this route – but gouties don't need any more pushes in the wrong direction!
Your results seem to reflect your diet very accurately.
Which ever way you jump- it's up to you.
If you don't want to start meds now- then you won't want to do when away.
IMO- If you don't want meds at all- then you will have to modify your lifestyle/diet to some degree.
Very interesting Savvy Veg link. Thanks.
It's still not clear to me whether there is reason to worry about toxins in the beans [esp when used regularly]. They soften and release sugars- is one thing, sure , but it may have other uses too to use a soak and throw approach!
I know Kidney beans are the bad boys for this worry . Maybe the folklore has crossed over to the humble ,and maybe innocent, Black Turtle bean?
On the storage issue- I find that 3- 4 days in the fridge is pushing it- and fermenting occurs. Also the juice can smell even more 'earthy' by then -and I've thrown a couple of leftovers away to be safe.
I doubt if it would actually be a problem if re- boiled in a soup though.
If you can't see early 'using up'- then freezer is best.
It takes ages to defrost in the fridge and lasts longer, too!
Very good walk UTube. First time back for weeks after flu and did bring on damp sweat somewhat- not yet 100% ! Quite a dank autumn day- if you know England!
On the foot front- the shoes ,even with old anti-shock lining from old runners took quite a bit of stick.
Both big toes got a working over, but settled a few hours later after hot bath! No flares anyway.
The shoulders ached more from the pack- with spare heavy duty walk sandals [not needed] amongst other stuff.
Rate was slow @ 2.5 mph- but it was a social affair also.
With more trad boots- I think I would have felt the impact. Can recommend the softer shoe /boot now coming in- but definitely waterproof.
Here's a pic to cheer you up- to make a change from me ranting ;~)
A monument from way back on the way into the home village [& Pub :)]
U tube- I just caught your post, after my last.
https://gout-pal.com/gout-p…..tem/#p3425
From that- I mention the effect of lymphatic activity being good for reducing acid in the body so walking to do this- as well as flexing toe joints, would be ideal.
I'm going to try 8 miles in soft walking boots today to prove it!
Quote: There are a lot of people round here who are relying on you to show that dietary control can work
A agree with that ,GP!
I am trying the tricky business of a mixture af an alkalizing Dr. Hay diet approach [not mixing Protein and Carbs] with a nod to the 'Leptin' idea [Fats NOT bad] and just fish 2x weekly. [Demi Veg]
This is hard to do alone- a wife would nag me into submission probably, if she loved me enough
The good news is I can get away with a bottle of wine a couple of times a week. Very little reaction [next am] so far. My BP is still rather high, I'm taking diuretics and my weight far from ideal, too!
Beer I love- but leave out if I can.Once a glass of wine goes down- beer loses it's attraction- though Black Sheep is a favourite of mine, too.
I'll maybe precis the ground rules for the ad-mixture later- if it stays good.
My main worry now, is whether to go on an 8 mile walk, when not qiute 100%- after flu.
I don't want to get sedentary- and good overall fitness is part of the master plan, too!
*** So Nokka-
Keep at it.
I reckon with the right approach- Gout can be beaten in more ways than one.
Accepting the rider-that a steady urate somewhat <6mg/dl is the arbiter, longterm.
Such is your grasp Keith ! -that I thought you could rename this one, or I can restart it -if that is easier.
I know you have a lot to keep up with on here.
On the issue of health awareness -A little knowledge is said to be dangerous- but only if mis-applied.
I can see that an in depth system to cover all cases would get too convoluted , on this basis, as you mention.
'Protocol' is the wrong word- 'General Approach to Gout' may be better. Some Doctors would welcome self responsibilty, some may feel threatened by it!
Individuals are responsible for their own well being but often pass this on to third parties- maybe they're even encouraged in this, by social custom and habit.
Equally, when seeking advice from fellow sufferers, it is the readers responsibility to gauge comments and ideas to suit themselves.
BTW- If you've tried to change Drs. in the UK – you'll know it's not at all straightforward.
Interesting to read your comments GP.
I don't like your selected title much- but agree gout is a personal path, in many ways.
'Suggested Gout Protocol – Ideas pending' would have done me!
I post a quick response just to clarify a point that may have been misread.
My point about you getting fed up wasn't about the post,as such, but the fact that it's so hard to get a decent medical diagnosis so many times, as illustrated. Thus forcing self diagnosis !
This reflects seriously into how the illness develops, responds and how the sufferer handles it.
Hence my follow up with an idea that people could check against a protocol and then come forward with a diagnosis and blood test figures, ALSO- pushing the responsibility back where it belongs, the personal Doctor !
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